The Delphi Podcast Guest Host and NFT/Gaming Analyst Jeremy Parris sits down with Vitomir Jevremovic and Jovan Tisma, Co-founders of ALL.ART, foundational NFT infrastructure built on the Solana blockchain. They discuss metadata, infrastructure, and intellectual property issues around NFTs, the $AART token IDO and NFT drop, VR ALL.ART and much more!
00:56 • Jeremy
Welcome back everybody to another Delphi Digital Podcast. I’m Jeremy Parris, your host. I’m one of Delphi’s NFT / play-to-earn / metaverse gaming analysts; they all go hand in hand and it has become quite a mouthful to say. Today, I have with me the All Art team. You guys may be familiar with them as the SolSea team, but we’re going to dig into the connection there very shortly. I’ll let you go ahead and introduce yourselves and tell us about who you are and why we’re here today. I’ll kick it over to you first, Vito. Thank you so much for making the time to jump on the podcast today.
01:31 • Vito
Hi Jeremy. We are so pleased to be here. My name is Vitomir Jevremovic, but you can call me Vito which is shorter and easier to remember. I’m the founder of the All Art protocol and VR All Art and SolSea. On the call today with us is also Jovan who is a co-founder of All Art. We’ll be talking today about how it all started, where we are heading, what is currently in the works, and what’s been happening in the NFT space on Solana and also on SolSea which is an interesting story too. I think that the audience will be very interested to learn about what is All Art and what we are actually building, not only SolSea but all of the products that are in the pipeline. Without further adieu, I would like to call Jovan to introduce himself and then we can move forward.
02:22 • Jovan
Hi guys. I’m Jovan Tisma. People call me JT here. I’m a co-founder and I’m doing business dev and partnerships. Everybody who wants to build with us metaverses and create NFTs, they can connect with me via Twitter or Telegram or ping Jeremy and he will introduce us.
02:43 • Jeremy
Absolutely. Always happy to make those connections. I’m super excited to dig into this today because it feels like I’ve known you guys for a long time at this point. We know how time dilation works in the crypto world. It’s only been probably four or five months but it has felt like years in building this whole thing together. Before we dive into SolSea and your upcoming IDO, I’d love to start with the big vision. What is All Art? Introduce All Art to the audience. Some of them might not be as aware of All Art as they are of SolSea. I would love to hear about the big vision behind All Arts. What is it? What is it solving for? Wherever you think is a good place to start, let’s dive into it.
03:28 • Vito
All Art is what we call a new type of NFT infrastructure that we are building on the Solana blockchain. All Arts is a key element or is a foundation of the next level of NFTs and metaverses that we are preparing on Solana blockchain, but probably also we will go wider than that and jump to cross-chain implementation as soon as the time permits. The All Art vision and mission is that NFTs will become everything that we are surrounded with. We will NFTize the world in years to come because the NFT is actually your digital representation of real life items. When we’re talking about real life items we are not only talking about real life items in the real world but also in the digital and metaverse world. The problem with the current NFT standards is that the first NFTs that were built years ago never thought about implementing different standards in different industries.
04:27 • Vito
We saw that because our background is also art and culture. We came from the art market and culture market, and we see that the current NFT standard is not sufficient enough to have all the data that is necessary for these industries to be onboarded. When we are talking about the data, we are actually talking about things that we are used to in the real world like license rights, legal agreements, intellectual property, and then all these different derivatives of these license agreements… especially when you’re talking about music, you have multiple authors inside of a music piece, you have texts writer, you have composers, you have people that are singing, the band – everybody shares a piece of this intellectual property. The NFT, at its core, never handled these multiple stakeholders that are involved into the piece itself or an item. When you go even further, if we are talking about license rights for specific countries or for specific channels, the NFT infrastructure as it is today does not cover per industry needs.
05:32 • Vito
If we’re talking about music, then we can move into the movie industry. We can move into the traditional art. We move to real estate which also be NFTized distant future. What we see as All Art’s mission is to build this infrastructure for different industries, to dig deeper into the need of a specific niche and then to create metadata standards. And, not only the metadata, but we can see that today with all these NFT collections or games that are coming to the market, is that we need more structure in the way that the data is stored on-chain. For example, who is the author of a specific collection? How is this collection connected with the NFTs of that collection? Is there a limited supply or unlimited supply of NFTs from that collection? Currently, everything is experimented around these concepts, but actually we don’t have the architecture that is on-chain to give us these important connections between different data structures that sit on-chain.
06:40 • Vito
We have an example of people that we are working with. For example, one of the biggest music festivals (hopefully soon we will announce more), they’re coming in, they’re bringing their artists, these artists are minting the NFTs. They are the vendors. If you look at it from the point of a gallery as someone that is bringing the artists, it’s making the campaigns, it’s bringing the marketing, galleries minting the NFTs for their artists…we don’t have currently a metadata standards / on-chain standards for all of this to be readable on-chain which means that when they dig into the chain they need to see verification that came from a specific gallery or, for example, a music festival or a music producer that is releasing these NFTs of a specific author. You have a signature of the author on the NFT but you also have a signature of a gallery or you have a signature of a festival or a producer or a record label or something like that. All of that builds trust. All of that will eventually be data that is readable and accessible on-chain. And we don’t have these standards yet.
07:50 • Jovan
I look at this like: we are now in the process of creating the worlds of open metaverses. It’s like in human history, we are now getting the first laws. Now, everybody’s experimenting. I was listening to some sessions and some spaces and they say, “Maybe it’s security, or, “If this is the case, then we can do this and this..” So, now we are in total chaos. Now we have some fighting and we need some first laws like Hammurabi’s laws in history. We need to put the first legal binding stuff on that we can really exist in metaverses, not to be in chaos in fighting between the metaverses and the projects. It’s a funny time. It’s creation time. I really feel like we are gods in this universe of metaverses and we are creating something like new orders, new planets, new ways to help people interact. It’s totally crazy.
08:58 • Jeremy
It’s super crazy. I’m a big fan of history, and it’s like we’re in 1903 and we just saw the Wright brothers takeoff at Kitty Hawk. We saw that plane leave the ground. We looked up and we said, “Okay, now it’s time for the stars.” It’s like, “Whoa! We gotta slow down here a little bit. First, let’s build out the airplane, the infrastructure around it, and eventually we’ll get the satellites and spacecraft.”
09:23 • Vito
Exactly. I mean that is exactly the point of what we are doing. If we want to create a whole new airspace for these NFTs, we need airports. We need services around these airports. We need the roads to these airports. We need rules of the air and the land and everything together. We have the builders that are coming that are creating these collections, there are artists coming on board, and creators and these creator economies that all our protocol supports and will build for. We see that we are building up these highways of the future while the creators then will ride these highways. This is our vision that everybody will ride on these highways of the future in the NFT space. Our job and our mission is to build these roads, and it’s not an easy task. Trust me. When we look in the last couple of weeks, it would be much easier for us to build a collection then to actually build all the surrounding elements.
10:31 • Jeremy
Before we get to SolSea, (because I can’t wait to hear the stories from the front lines that you guys have been on) I want to back up a little bit. We just touched upon a lot of things as far as what you guys are doing with All Arts. I want to unpack that a little bit because the audience definitely just heard about metadata. licensing, IP, and building out these super highways, this infrastructure needed. Maybe a perfect way to walk through some of the things that you guys are building out like why the metadata is important, why we need the licensing, and what we’re going to do with this IP, is maybe applying it to that music festival or a hypothetical music festival because it highlights so many different things. You could imagine that, if you guys were sponsoring or working with a music festival, and you wanted to bring everything on-chain, why is my thesis…
11:19 • Jeremy
I think everything will eventually come on-chain – but if you have all these musicians and all these artists that want to bring their NFTs to this festival and sell digi-physical goods or even have a revenue splits baked into the metadata…we don’t have any of the infrastructure to actually create a robust NFT offering for a music festival. Let’s start with the metadata and what is lacking in the metadata right now when it comes to current NFTs? What do we need to inject into the metadata to help make those NFTs more robust?
11:51 • Vito
Thank you for asking these questions because this is one of the crucial things that I think the whole community needs to be aware of. There was a [Twitter] Space yesterday that was talking about IP rights and NFTs. When we started the journey, we started from the art market. Here is an interesting story. Everybody in the art market is asking, “What is an NFT?” When you tell them, “This is a hash in a blockchain.” They say, “Okay – what do I own when I buy an NFT?” Well you own a hash in a blockchain. So people say, “So why would I buy an NFT?” Because when you look at the data itself that sits on a chain there is actually a link to a file. This file sometimes is not even held in a let’s say ‘decentralized, unbreakable network.’ Sometimes the link to a file is held on your own servers which means that you can change the file.
12:48 • Vito
This is a big problem if you want to, let’s say, transfer ownership of something. Let’s get back to the file and what is written in the file. It’s usually a JSON file, and for the audience that is not too techy, we can say that in the JSON file there are some data points that are stored there. We have an image and then we have some other type of file, but usually it’s an image. Then we have these properties or traits. What’s happened in the last couple of months is that people started experimenting with these properties. These big collections actually get started by randomizing these properties and then selling the pieces on a slot machine. You buy a piece, but you actually don’t know what properties you will get.
13:32 • Jeremy
Generative art, right?
13:34 • Vito
Yes. The problem here is that these properties are actually not written on-chain. They are written in these files that are stored off-chain. If you want to hold the NFT that you bought and you think it’s valuable, these properties should be stored on-chain.
13:54 • Jeremy
Can we quickly touch upon that? I think that’s a huge point because a lot of times these JPEGs and that thing are either stored on IPFS or they’re stored on some sort of centralized server that could either erase the files, go down, or get hacked, and your data / your NFT could disappear. You’ll still own the hash, but there’ll be nothing there. That’s why I think we need to bring it on-chain, so that these things are immutable as well. The actual contents of the NFT are immutable and that they’re there forever. Right?
14:23 • Vito
There’s one more important thing. When we are talking about the technology side of properties. If properties are stored off-chain, that means that smart contracts that are handling these data points cannot access off-chain data. You need to have data stored on-chain in order for smart contracts to process this data once you launch a specific function of that smart contract. One of our goals, in a very short period of time, is to bring properties in on-chain accounts on Solana. Then, smart contracts can actually process these properties and make wonderful things. These properties in usual collections are traits like, “What type of hat do I have?” or, “What type of skin type do I have?” but in traditional art, these properties are more important. For example, “What is the material of the painting,” or, “What is the dimensions of the original painting,” or, “Who is the author of the painting?” That’s the type of data that needs to be stored on-chain and be unchangeable / immutable so that, when you buy something, you know that this data would not change.
15:46 • Jeremy
I want to go back to the music festival example and give some examples of properties that could tie into the festival. Imagine if you had a song or an album that you bought from an artist. One of the properties baked into that might say you have access to this festival. Not only do you have access to this festival, but because it’s all on-chain and baked into the NFT, it might give you backstage access to that artist’s show that you bought the NFT from, right? Or maybe, in that same album, there’s something baked into the metadata that says, “This guy was on drums. This guy was on the microphone. This guy was on guitar.”
16:24 • Jeremy
So, all of the secondary sales that occur with this NFT gets split evenly between those people in a trustless and decentralized way. Nobody actually has to do it. There’s no middleman there. It just happens automatically. Now, if these things aren’t on-chain, and if they’re not baked into the metadata, which oftentimes they’re not quite yet, then these things become a lot more difficult. You can’t keep track of them. It’s a messy infrastructure. Would that be a correct way of thinking about the metadata in a music NFT applied to this festival?
16:53 • Vito
Yes. I would add one more thing here. So, we have two layers here. One layer is an on-chain handling of the metadata like, “How and where it is stored, how it is organized, what is the architecture of the NFT that is a music?” Then, a layer on top of that is your front end like your tools and apps that are handling these data points. For example, if you have backstage access, there needs to be a guide there that will check whether you own that specific property of that NFT that you bought, or an NFT that represents that property (that is baked inside of the big NFT of that song or however we want to organize it). The thing is that there needs to be an app that will be able to check whether you own something or not.
17:52 • Vito
If it checks that you own it, and if it’s only a one-time event like you can access the stage only once, then it needs to somehow either burn the NFT or it needs to lock it or do something with it. There is additional utility that needs to be embedded inside of the apps that are utilizing that type of property or NFT and allow these kinds of mechanics to take place. Otherwise, if I use it for VIP access, and then I send it to my friend over there and now he can get to the stage, and then the other one can get to the stage…All these mechanics need to be thought of and experimented with. Tools on top of it like apps, dapps – all these access points need to be developed. This is the big vision. We’re not going to develop all of that. Our job and our mission is to think about infrastructure, build infrastructure, and, as much as we can, develop the tools and apps on top of it. If others are willing to do that, we’re completely fine with that.
19:03 • Jeremy
I love that. That is really the spirit of Web 3.0 and having a open source software.
19:10 • Jovan
Exactly. That’s the point. We don’t need to build our tools. We can enable people that can build their tools on top of our standards. Jeremy, what you were saying about the artist and how they will get their money from their IP rights on the song – that’s still miles away. First, people need to decide what the standards are. After that, you have a million of music creators who are getting their IP rights checks from the television, from the airtime, and everything. This is just the beginning. As Vito said, we first need to put the standards there and get the partners who will build deals with us. The end users will come later.
19:59 • Jeremy
Just to recap some of the things we’ve gone over so far: All Art is essentially identifying problems and gaps in the NFT infrastructure but also what an NFT is. In identifying what NFTs are lacking, to enable everything coming on-chain…If we do believe in that thesis of ‘everything coming on-chain,’ right now we really have to nail art and culture and collectible things so that if we do bring something like a house mortgage or a car loan on-chain one day, the foundation and the infrastructure has to be air tight. So, All Art is identifying these things, and not only identifying these things, also helping build out some of those missing pieces of an NFT. That’s not enough though because you also need the infrastructure. You need the electricity and you need the plumbing to build the NFT house. If you just have a pretty house, it doesn’t matter if the house isn’t livable, right?
20:55 • Vito
You need a sink! You have water, you have piping, but you need a sink. You need that nice little thing that will gather the water once it runs from your wall. We need all of these things in order to have the NFTs of the future running our economies, and we are just starting.
21:12 • Jeremy
We touched upon metadata, properties, and briefly touched upon IP. I want to quickly touch upon IP and licensing a little bit more before we move on. What do you see as the problem as far as IP and licensing goes with NFTs at the moment? How can we solve for that or make it more robust?
21:31 • Vito
There are a lot of problems with IP and NFTs right now. I would say that it’s only problems. There are no real solutions yet. I can explain this maybe by guiding you through the process of buying and selling an NFT. When you buy an NFT on the secondary or primary marketplace, what you get is a hash. You tick the box to accept the terms and conditions (if there is any box to tick – because most of the marketplaces actually don’t have terms of conditions at all). Let’s say you tick the box and you say, “Okay I agree to these terms and conditions,” but you don’t read them. There is nothing in the NFT that says what type of rights you get or you own once you buy an NFT. That’s the first step.
22:22 • Vito
Imagine a second or third step where you resell this NFT or you send it out as a gift and then someone we resells this gift on some secondary marketplace.
22:32 • Jeremy
Just to clarify real quick. When you say rights you mean like commercial rights, advertising rights, that sort of thing?
22:38 • Vito
Commercial rights or public exposure rights – whatever right that you as an author want to give to a person that is buying this NFT.
22:48 • Jovan
All kinds of IP rights, all kinds of ownership, everything. We can start with the simplest ownership, like when you send your USDC or Sol, what you get and what you own.
23:03 • Vito
Let me go back to step two. You get an NFT on a secondary marketplace, but you never signed for any terms and conditions because you bought it on some other marketplace that has no terms and conditions. You get the token, you get the NFT, and then you think you own what? What can you do with it with this JPEG? Can I print it on a t-shirt? Can I organize an exhibition with this JPEG? If it’s a song, can I play it at my party , or can I play it on my television? If I’m a TV station, can I buy a song and play it out in a TV show? Or, if I’m doing a public concert, can I use that as a background music in my next song? There are so many levels of IP rights, but you don’t know what you own.
23:56 • Vito
There is nothing written inside of the NFT that says that you can do this or that with this NFT. We come to a point where a lot of artists are saying, “You can do whatever you want with this NFT. You have all the rights that you want,” (like Bored Apes Yacht Club). First of all, it’s never written in the NFT. Second of all, then we had a situation with one of the collections on SolSea which was called a Rogue Sharks. Rogue Sharks did exactly that. They said, “Hey you can do whatever you want with the shark once you buy it.” That means that you own all the IP rights / creative rights for the shark, which means that not only that you can resell the shark that you own but you can also make copies of that same shark.
24:50 • Vito
You can never state that this is a fake shark because they gave you the right to do whatever you want with the shark that you bought. You can even remake the shark yourself as a creative work and make it look exactly the same and then resell these sharks as your own. No one is stopping you from doing these things. There is no fix, then. We had a problem because people were yelling, “You can buy fakes,” but we were saying, “We don’t know whether this is a fake or not because they gave up all their rights.” A new person can buy an NFT, make a copy sell, the NFT that they originally bought, and then make a thousand copies of that NFT. New people that are coming on board and buying these NFTs that are legitimate, and then they can be resold again and remade again.
25:52 • Vito
It’s a mess. No one is taking care of these things. So, what we did with our protocol and the first version of what we call “NFT pro,” is that we embed the license agreement on the top of the original metadata, and store this license agreement on-chain, which means that you can access the license on-chain. You can see what the author wanted to give you as his type of rights. I will give another example here. When we are talking about traditional art, if you bought a painting, and you want to make an exhibition with this painting, You cannot do that without the consent of the original author because the artist’s name is closely connected to his piece. Depending on the context that you want to exhibit this piece, he can choose whether he wants to permit you to do that or he wants to ban you from doing this.
26:57 • Vito
For example, if you want to make an exhibition that is hateful or has hate speech, and you want to use this art piece in that type of exhibition, he has all the rights to say, “You cannot use my piece even though you own the original.” So, unless he gave you a specific permission in a written form that you can exhibit this piece without his consent – it makes a lot of sense right? It should be done properly in the NFT infrastructure. We need to have apps…for example, our metaverse platform which is called VR All Art because we are now switching to the NFT infrastructure. It will have these types of access grants or access licenses that will allow people to create exhibitions or not from the NFTs that they own.
27:54 • Jeremy
Yeah. You start with the protocol level and then you figure out what products are needed to make that protocol reality which would be like VR All Art, SolSea, and any other products you release in the future. As you were talking through that NFT example of licensing, something else hit me: if you don’t have these licenses embedded in NFTs as well, it makes the NFTs a lot harder to become composable. You’re not going to have composable NFTs, and that’s what open source and Web3 is all about, right? If we want to build this metaverse, if we want all these things to become a reality, NFTs have to be able to integrate and exist together in a trustless way without having to go through this huge bureaucratic middleman process.
28:39 • Jeremy
If the NFTs can’t become composable by themselves, how do we ever expect the metaverse to emerge? We need these pieces of infrastructure to help for composability, for interoperability, for trustlessness. These are all core pillars of what’s going to enable the metaverse, and you guys are helping build out some of those pillars at the moment. This is a good segue into SolSea which is going to be one of the pillars of All Art, and it’s also going to enable you guys to experiment, play with, and dig into NFTs and work on them and solve problems that we identified. What is SolSea? Let’s jump in.
29:23 • Vito
We are the first truly open NFT marketplace on Solana. What is important here is not whether we were first to release it or not, but the important aspect is that we kept it open. That’s important because, with the current state of NFTs, especially on Solana, verification is a big problem. People don’t do their own research. They think that when they buy an NFT they’re buying what we call ‘original NFT’ from the original authors. SolSea is, first of all, an NFT marketplace. You can buy and sell any NFT that was minted on Solana, but there is this verification tick that you can get if you are an original author or you’re an original collection. We had a big challenge at the beginning of when we launched SolSea to actually explain to people how the interface should look to protect the innocent, to protect the people that don’t know what an NFT is or they will maybe buy a copy mint.
30:35 • Vito
We need to warn them. We need to be very clear on communicating what you are actually buying. The problem here is the wide community that is not interested in reading these warning signs. They just go to a marketplace, they see a JPEG image, and they click buy. They never check the background / the provenance. They check after they buy. They say, “I’ve been scammed!” Why did they check after and not before?
31:13 • Jeremy
It’s hard. Even myself, there have been times when there’s a sale going on and I jumped on the same secondary market and started scooping stuff up. Even for me, I consider myself a reasonably seasoned NFT collector. And sometimes I’ll buy four things and then it’ll hit me, “Oh crap! Did I even see if there was a blue check mark here?” Then there’s this small moment of panic where I wonder if I just got rugged. So, it’s totally understandable. The emotions can be quite high in this space we all exist in, so I really appreciate that you guys are trying to make that as transparent and navigable as possible.
31:48 • Vito
Our job with SolSea is to dig deeper into the real life problems of the NFT community and the sector and to try to solve these problems. These problems are solved on multiple levels. This is what your listeners of these podcasts need to understand. The solution is in the infrastructure. How do we put verification on-chain? How do we put licenses on-chain? How do we put the correct metadata? How do we store these off-chain files together with the NFTs that are stored on-chain? Can we transcend these limits of off-chain / on-chain problems? And then,there is the problem of interface / communication: where do you click? What is shown? Is this clear enough? Whether or not we are stopping the original authors from selling their pieces because we are putting the big red or yellow signals saying that this is unverified…
32:46 • Vito
And then, this level of verification is done by humans. It is done by us. Tomorrow, we are building an infrastructure that will be done by communities, not by us or anyone in particular. Do you trust these humans to give you the proper information? Recently, we had a problem in SolSea. There was a collection that was detected. It was verified, but it was not from the original author. We had to put it down, but we did verification. Our people did verification. They did it because they saw the original works in making from this person. What actually happened is that the original author was sharing his makings on social networks and then this copycat took these videos and shared them with us as if he was the author. We could not know these things, so we made a mistake. Humans make mistakes.
33:51 • Vito
We need to be, first of all, forgiving to not only us but to others that are making mistakes. This is all experimental. We are doing our best. There are multiple levels to running a marketplace or creating this new space for NFTs. It’s not only tech. It’s also a human level, trust level, and institutional level. There are so many things. SolSea is our ship that is sailing on this sea of this new reality. This is another reality. This is not the real world – this is some other world. We are literally exploring the seas of this new world with SolSea. One of our colleagues said, “SolSea is our hands-on market research for the protocol and for the space.”
34:47 • Jeremy
That’s what I wanted to get to. To bring it back to the music festival: you can’t just spin up a bunch of cool NFTs and take them to a music festival and start sending them out and airdropping them to people. To get to the music festival, that is the equivalent of the rocket ship in the airplane analogy, right? You built the airplane. You’re not building a rocket ship next. You have to go through all the iterations that got you to a rocket ship. To have the NFTs, you have to get your hands on the NFT marketplace. Before you can even start embedding the metadata and the IP rights into the NFTs, you need a marketplace that looks good and that functions well with good UX and UI.
35:29 • Jeremy
People need to feel safe. There’s a lot of steps in the NFT marketplace rabbit hole that need to be overcome before you get to the really granular sort of stuff. I wanted to point that out because technology doesn’t happen in leaps and bounds. It happens baby step by baby step. A lot of that happens behind the scenes and people might not appreciate it. You know what I mean?
35:52 • Jovan
Of course. Technology is not important when there’s a gold rush. People are going with the gold rush: they don’t look, and they don’t think what is going to happen after the gold rush or after the tulip in Holland. We really need to think. NFTs are here to stay. It’s a beautiful innovation how we can store non-fungible things on the chain. Yet, we are still in research and development, making mistakes and going around. Also, it’s important that a lot of people are getting in who are scientists, lawyers, real estate developers, or brands. All of their know-how will get inside and with some broad dialogue about the NFTs, will bring some better standards in the future.
37:04 • Jeremy
Absolutely. I’ve met some great lawyers that are really thinking hard about NFTs at the moment. Not only are we seeing a transfer of wealth occur in Web 3.0 and in crypto, but we’re seeing a transfer of knowledge and expertise and pure workload and work effort. It’s all these little pieces that are going to help put the sink into the house. So, we’ve talked about how SolSea’s an open marketplace and how you guys have gone through some of the learning and growing pains of launching a product out into the wild. You do open yourself up for so many different things. In a different conversation, Vito, I loved how you referred to SolSea as putting your hand into a piranha tank.
37:50 • Vito
Yes. It’s literally – not putting one hand but both hands in the piranha tank and then learning how to navigate how to not get bitten. Basically, we got a lot of bites and bruises and cuts from running Solsea, reputation-wise. But, we are here. We are sustaining. We are building a better product. We are building a better infrastructure, and it is a piranha tank. Everybody’s attacking you. Everybody is trying to hurt you. No one is nursing you. No one is saying, “Hey keep it up guys. You’re doing a good job.” No. They’re saying, “You’re not doing a good job,” and all that. No one is actually understanding that this is a gold rush, and everybody’s a piranha in this tank.
38:48 • Vito
We are learning how to swim in a piranha tank before we jump into the Amazon river with real piranhas. We think that it’s a necessary step. It’s a very strange growing pain because I don’t think that we will get that type of pirana attitude if we were just opening up a usual Shopify shop and selling shoes.
39:15 • Jeremy
That is why we call it growing pains because it can be painful to grow. Having watched you guys operate, I’ve seen SolSea grow a lot in the past month, and you guys have come leaps and bounds from the first iteration to where you are now to where you are positioned for this IDO that’s coming up. We’ve seen you guys do a lot of experimentation and trying things because you’re only going to find that golden nugget from actually searching. I appreciate that adventurous spirit that you guys have and the bravery as well. I do want to touch upon the IDO. When this podcast is released it will actually be ‘tomorrow.’ If everything works out, this will be released on the 20th. You’ll have your IDO tomorrow and you’re going to be launching your All Art token (not the SolSea token, which I do not want to stress because SolSea and All Art are two separate things, but they’re under the same umbrella).
40:12 • Jeremy
It’s all one ecosystem. The All Art token is going to touch SolSea, but it’s also going to touch everything else in the All Art ecosystem for years and years to come. Because, as you said, this is a gold rush, but I know the vision here and I know you guys aren’t rushing for gold. You’re building out a multi-year, decades-long business. I’d love to talk about the IDO and the All Art token and what to expect from that. Before we maybe touch upon the All Art token, let’s talk about the IDO that’s happening tomorrow. Can people still get involved? What kind of IDO is it going to be? If you could give a high level there that’d be super helpful for everybody listening in.
40:49 • Vito
The IDO itself is a new form of a public sale that was initiated by Mango Markets a couple of months ago. It’s basically an IDO pool. The sale lasts for 48 hours. In the first 24 hours, you can contribute and put money inside the pool, but you can also withdraw the money from the pool if you’re not happy with how things are progressing. In the last 24 hours, you can only withdraw money from the pool. It brings interesting mechanics of the sale. It also brings in a lot of safety for all the participants because, once they contribute, they can always withdraw, which means that they can contribute the sums they want put inside of the pool and then, by the very last second, they can still withdraw, which I think is important for people to be relaxed when they’re entering the sale.
41:44 • Jeremy
I’m trying to imagine if I’m a listener right now and this was my first time buying something or being part of an IDO. How does it work? I put money in. The more money that other people put in, does that bring the price up? Then, if I’m not happy with that price, I could then pull my money back out and then wait and see what happens? Can you talk through those mechanisms a little bit more?
42:08 • Vito
We are selling 100 million – all our tokens. When the sale ends, the tokens will be divided between the participants based on their contribution size, right? So, depending on how much we raise, that will determine…it’s a price discovery type of sale, so we will know the end price of a token after the sale ends. We have no clue what will happen during the IDO sale. Depending on how things progress, you can always follow how much money is in the pool and how many tokens your contribution will get you. As more people come in, your share will drop, but the price of the coin will grow, so that your share will be valued exactly at how much money you placed inside of the pool. The number of tokens will be less. It’s an interesting mechanism. We like it very much compared to other types of sales that we saw. We don’t like the fact that when you are doing an IDO sale through some launchpads, there are so many oversubscribed tickets.
43:13 • Vito
The people that wanted to get in could not get in. That actually kept the price of the token to an inappropriate level because more people actually valued the token. If more people value the token and they want in, they should be allowed to participate.
43:32 • Jeremy
Let’s say I am a big fan of SolSea. Maybe I’ve bought a couple of NFTs from different collections. What’s the process to get involved with the IDO? What’s the KYC process? If I’m hearing this on the 20th and I’m like, “Holy moly it’s tomorrow. I gotta get ready for this IDO.” What does somebody need to do to prepare to buy the All Art token?
43:52 • Vito
There is an interesting twist here with this IDO pool. We will be the first IDO pool of this kind to do a KYC before the IDO starts. That means that you need to get your wallet address whitelisted so that you can actually participate in the pool. This is a very important step for us because, if we want to bring All Art to the masses and create this new infrastructure, we need to be regulatory compliant. We cannot jump over this. To do that, we need to do KYC on the public sale because, if we don’t do that, then we don’t know whether these funds are actually dirty, and they can always put a bad name on our token, saying, “You accepted unregulated funds.: This is why we are doing the KYC prior to the IDO.
44:50 • Vito
Once we go to all of these different jurisdictions, when we set up the businesses and operations, we know that the money that came through the public sale is completely clean. We can use that money to actually grow the business.
45:06 • Jeremy
That makes total sense. Eventually, regulation will come, and you want to make sure you have all your ducks in a row for when it does. How regulation comes: we can’t imagine, but I think it’s good to be ahead of it.
45:20 • Vito
I also want to stress this: our job is to bring in proper regulation. We don’t want them to get into the NFT sector without understanding the sector. We need to build the sector so that, when they come, they feel relaxed. They know that the groundwork has been done. There are ways that the whole sector functions which are regulatory-compliant, and we need to build this. We cannot expect government institutions to come in and tell us how things should be done. They don’t understand the sector. We are the ones that need us to build this infrastructure for them and then tell them, “Hey we have solutions. Here they are. This is how it looks.”
46:04 • Jeremy
100%. Totally agree.
46:06 • Jovan
Also, Vito is really fighting for the NFT standards. He’s really passionate about this. But also, he forgot to tell you about the funny part of our IDO. The funny part of our IDO is that we will have a special goodie box with we VR headsets and t-shirts.
46:33 • Jovan
You can check it on our IDO page at IDO.all.art. That’s the funny part. What Vito didn’t mention is that we also want to onboard people in VR as we are building metaverses. That’s why we are giving our IDO participants an opportunity to get the VR headset which comes already pre-installed the VR Art app so they can get into our exhibitions and see the part of the world that we want to build with our vision.
47:15 • Vito
The VR All Art app and our product that is not SolSea but is something else – a metaverse of galleries and museums.
47:24 • Jovan
You can check it on the website of All Art because there you can see the whole universe of all the products we are building.
47:33 • Jeremy
I want to touch upon that real quick. I’m on ido.all.art, and I’m looking at your three different things. The VIP goody box is awarded to the top 50 contributors, and then the other 50 will be rewarded randomly. It doesn’t matter how much you put in, which is super cool. That’s the one that has the VR headsets and some other goodies in there like a couple of t-shirts, some stickers, and the All Art apparel. You’re going to be giving out a bunch of t-shirts and hoodies which have a pretty clean logo. I would love for you to actually talk more about the exclusive NFT collection. It says, “They will give you exclusive access to private chats and clubs and access to the All Art metaverse.” Could you talk about that NFT collection? Is that going to be rewarded to everybody who participates? Would love to hear some more there.
48:21 • Vito
What we thought is that that’s the proper step to take, right? We are an NFT platform, so we need to reward our IDO participants with NFTs. We will basically distribute to every participant one NFT. We will have tiers of NFTs based on the size of your contribution, but what is important is that these NFTs would be like your access keys. These access keys will operate on our Discord together with a great protocol. We will be launching an access point where you will enter the chats if you have these NFTs. Then you can talk about the infrastructure here. What is maybe even more interesting is the collaborations that we have with collections and especially with the artists and galleries that are coming on board in VR All Art which will also enable these NFT holders to have these VIP events. They can access these VIP events before the actual sale is happening.
49:18 • Vito
It’s almost like the real life Art Basel. For the public it opens up on a specific date, but actually, three days prior to the public opening, you have two days for extremely VIP visitors / collectors. You also have one day before the public event where invites-only can come in. We want to build these kinds of specific access points for the holders of these NFTs so that they can feel that they are part of a very special community. We think that the participants of the All Art IDO are a special community. There are people that came in because, not only they believe in the token, but they believe in what we are doing, and that’s important. We need to reward them with something special. That’s why we are giving away not only the NFTs but also the VR goodie boxes. We want them inside of these metaverses that we are creating.
50:21 • Vito
We want them to feel it. For example, in VR All Art, we are detecting the hands using the Oculus Quest and Focus 3. You can see your hands basically in VR, and you can see your avatar. When you see another person’s avatar that is moving the hands, mouth gestures, blinking, etc., you can literally feel this person is inside together with you. This is incomparable to zoom calls, to Google meets, and these other types of meetings in the metaverse. Because, once you’re in a gallery / in an art exhibition, together with a couple of people, you are standing in front of the piece as an avatar, you’re discussing the author, you are actually joined in this exhibition by the galleries and together with the artist – that’s a completely different experience. We think that the world will change in the next year or two, and people will start gathering in these exhibitions and the sales will not happen online. They will happen in virtual exhibitions.
51:29 • Jovan
Vito has been talking like this for a couple years, and just a few days ago the same thing came from the mouth of Bill Gates. He said something like, “In the future, the business meetings and the sales of the art and everything will happen with avatars in VR.” It’s nice when guys like him are approving what we’ve been saying for years.
51:56 • Jeremy
VR is a trip. If you haven’t been in VR before, it’s definitely an experience the first time you get immersed and have an interaction in VR. You’re going to have to fact check me on this, but I think I saw an article the other day that said there were more VR headsets sold this year than there were PlayStation5’s. I think this is a pretty interesting statistic because, to get to the point where we are entering into the VR metaverse or the metaverse, there needs to be a VR headset on everybody’s desk. I think we’re slowly starting to see that happen, and it’s super exciting. I’m super excited for the people who do get those VR headsets because, chances are, for a few of them, it’s going to be their first experience in a VR headset which is super special
52:45 • Vito
I’ll tell you an interesting fact for the audience when they think about the business models and what is happening with VR exhibitions and traditional art markets. So, VR All Art has been in the building process for the last three years. We launched last year before the blockchain implementation, before this whole bull run that happened and the craziness in the NFT space. The concept is very simple. You run a gallery, for example, somewhere in Europe. You have your collectors from all edges of the world or all parts of the world: you have collectors in the USA, you have collectors in Asia, you have collectors in Australia or in Africa. If they want to see a show, they need to visit your gallery. It’s a difficult thing, especially now when we live in a post COVID world or COVID world. Traveling is limited.
53:39 • Vito
You cannot show the art that easily. Now, look at it from the perspective of a gallerist. If you can buy a headset for 300 bucks, that is amazing. That brings you this option of creating virtual exhibitions easily. You can basically buy a hundred headsets and send them out to all your collectors because usually these expensive art pieces are sometimes sold for tens of thousands of U.S. dollars, right? So, if you can get the whole collector’s community in virtual reality in your own private shows together with the artist and the gallerist, I think that the whole art market will start functioning totally differently. You, as a gallerist, there’s a lot of sense to invest a couple of tens of thousands of dollars in creating your unique community of collectors and onboarding them into the space of VR / into the space of crypto. Everything is much easier, simpler, faster, and more engaging in these new metaverses.
54:47 • Vito
It will change the dynamics of the whole art market. Not to mention that, when you jump into the VR, you’re basically jumping in as an anonymous avatar, so you can protect your identity. You can protect your position in the space. Keep in mind that all important big art collectors or NFT collectors don’t like to be widely recognized because they fear for their collection and protection of their properties. This gives you a completely new access point into the reality of art and culture.
55:31 • Jeremy
I totally agree. The shift we’re seeing in society is fascinating, not only for VR but for online culture in general. I want to stress and highlight once again, if you’re wondering why we went on this VR tangent, it’s because VR All Art is another product of All Art. Right now, SolSea is very front-facing as far as All Art goes, but there’s a lot of different products in the All Art ecosystem that are either out or are going to come out. So, I just want to stress again that this IDO is your access point into that All Art metaverse. These are just the first two products that are a part of that metaverse. Going back to the All Art token, is there any utility that you could talk about that will be introduced, or anything that you guys are comfortable sharing at the moment as far as what this token could do when somebody acquires it, or any color you guys can give there? If not, totally cool, but would love to drop some alpha.
56:34 • Vito
We want to talk about it because that’s the whole point. You’re not buying the token to hold the token and then do nothing with it. Our core concept is that we build a token that has real life utilities. The first two utilities that will be available on SolSea, upon launch of the token, will actually be staking: two types of staking. One staking will happen inside of the SolSea itself which means that it will lower down the trading fees that you have. The other staking is also interesting. That is that you will be able to stake all our tokens on listings. Once you have a listing, you will be able to put an NFT on the marketplace and then stake the tokens to get this golden listing status. Depending on your stake, all the golden listings will be shown on the top of the search inside of the NFT collections and inside of the NFT Explorer page.
57:35 • Vito
What is even more interesting is that we will calculate the amount of stake of all our tokens per collection. Collections will also get more visibility if there are a lot of staked tokens inside of the NFTs that were listed inside of these collections. So, we have two different levels of staking mechanics built in SolSea that we hope will spark more dynamics in the NFT market.
58:09 • Jeremy
Once you acquire some All Art tokens either from the IDO or the secondary market or however you acquire them, you could stake into SolSea. The first utility would be lower fees. The second utility is, if you stake into NFTs themselves, then it’ll bring the collection up the rankings, right? Just to recap that.
58:29 • Vito
Yes. And your NFTs inside of that collection.
58:32 • Jeremy
There will be utility from day one for the All Art token.
58:38 • Vito
Here is an interesting thing that I would like to discuss about the general token utilization in these projects, whenever we call the infrastructure that is happening with the tokens. We believe that the real utility of the token always needs to be experimented with. We cannot guarantee or know what type of mechanics will actually bring in the bigger value of the token in the future. We need to try a lot of things. Like, “Okay. You can list in all our tokens then there’s no trading fees or maybe it will be better listed. Or if you want to buy a ticket to the virtual exhibition you will buy these tickets in all our tokens.” So there would be a utility if all the prices of tickets were mandatory to be bought in all our tokens. Or the creator economies (that we didn’t even touch on) will be collateralized in all our tokens.
59:35 • Vito
So, once you launch a collection, you can also launch your own token as a creator, and then you will have a pool in all our tokens that will be created automatically. These types of mechanics are still very new, and we need to see which stick and which don’t. We need to experiment fast and iterate on different utilities. What is important is that we need the token to experiment. That’s why we are building it. That’s why we are releasing it. Without it, our weapons are empty. We don’t have bullets in our weapons. We need to have the fuel in order to pour the fuel into the vehicles that we are creating. Then we will know whether the vehicle is right or wrong, but we need the fuel. When we are talking about the token in the long run, yield farming – giving yield on listings or giving yield on having a gallery or making an event…these different mechanics of onboarding newcomers to the space, I think this is where the token shines. This is why we need the token: so that we can create giveaways and incentive mechanisms to bring in new people to the space.
01:01:01 • Vito
That’s why we have the vesting for a long period. It’s a six year vesting and unlocking of portions of the tokens so that we can create these mechanics to spark the interest in the NFTs, to spark the interest in All Art protocol, and to bring in more people into the space. I’ll give you an example about what the plans for the tokens are. We also open what we call the All Art Fund. All Art Fund will finance activities in the creative sector / in the art sector, giving away grants that will bring more artists into the space. We think this is the crucial element of the whole journey, is that we cannot do this without fuel. We need to have the fuel to bring more people into the space.
01:01:52 • Jovan
More people means more value for our token. Like Jeremy said, we didn’t even touch the creator economy. I suggest to Vito to call Jeremy to our podcast to discuss the creator economy later.
01:02:07 • Jeremy
That’s a whole different can of worms right there: the creator economy…the economy of abundance versus the economy of scarcity and all the implications of that. I look forward to that conversation. That’s one of my favorite things to jam on, so we’ll have to make that happen. Essentially what you guys are saying is the All Art token enables you to actually… going back to the top of this conversation when were talking about all those different pieces that need to be built into NFTs and the infrastructure that needs to be built underneath the NFTs, the All Art token is essentially your way to begin experimenting with the best ways to enable that to happen and to make that as robust as possible and to begin building out this protocol in a more accelerated way. Now that we have the vision / the plan and we see what needs to be fixed, now implementation and the creation of that begins. I think that is the importance of this IDO.
01:03:03 • Jovan
It is all experimenting, but we are also business people, so all of that will bring some value at the end.
01:03:13 • Jeremy
Speaking of being business people, did you say that the team’s vesting period is six years?
01:03:18 • Vito
No. The team cliff is two years and then the vesting is another two years. We’re talking about basically four years until the team tokens are completely unlocked, and we think this is also communicating a very clear message: that we are not here to dump the tokens – we are here to build. We are here to create an economy around the whole NFT space. I want to talk briefly on what Jovan said and to get back to SolSea. The crazy thing that your audience here might not know is that the SolSea was never imagined when we started building the All Art protocol. Solsea was our response to the market demand. People started asking, “When will there be an OpenSea on Solana?” and then we were like, “Let’s build this, and let’s call it SolSea.” Then all hell broke loose with SolSea.
01:04:16 • Vito
Why is this important? The point is that we have a running product. We have a running business. This business is bringing us profits from day zero. We have 300,000 registered users on SolSea. We’ve been running for three months now. If you think about it, it’s like we are not only creating something that we think will have its fruition in the future, we are actually running a business while doing all of this. This is not the usual scenario for most of the projects. You usually raise funding and then you start your project, and then if it works, it works, and if it doesn’t work, you are doomed. In our case, we are raising funds for the future vision while we still have the running product bringing money every day. First of all, it extends significantly our runway from the funds that we raised.
01:05:18 • Vito
Second of all, it brings in real interaction with the market itself. We know what is happening on the market. We are market participants. We are not observers. We are there together with our communities. We are there together with our collections, with builders, with people that are creating in the space, and we know what they need. We not only feel them, but we are actually bringing their needs out to the public. I think this is the key element of our All Art strategy and business is that we want products to be there on the market while we are building the infrastructure.
01:05:58 • Jeremy
Absolutely. It’s like what we were saying at the top is that you guys are on the front lines, and you have to be on the front lines to realize everything that’s needed. Super excited to see what happens with All Art IDO tomorrow (i.e. December 20th). We’ve already been talking for over an hour now, so the time has absolutely flown by. I want to be respectful of your guys’ time, and I think we’ve touched upon a lot of really excellent things during this podcast. Are there any closing thoughts you guys want to touch upon? Tell people where to follow along the SolSea journey.
01:06:44 • Jeremy
Where can they find out more about All Art, if that’s possible? Is there anything you want to plug? I want to move into the closing thoughts and allow you guys to shill anything there.
01:06:57 • Vito
We invite everybody to first of all come to the IDO. it’s ido.all.art, but you can also come to all.art and from there you will find links to other products that we are building like SolSea.io, VRallart.com, or for example, Unity Solana wallet (that we never touched on) which is our open source implementation of an NFT wallet inside of the Unity game development engine. What I want to shill is actually I want to tell you a short story about what we can expect in the future. I think that what we’ve seen now with collections and everything that is coming in the NFT sector, we haven’t seen nothing compared to what is in production as we speak. Actually back in that third office from here are assets for the metaverses. We are now building assets for the metaverses. This is going to be a huge thing in the next wave of NFTs.
01:08:01 • Vito
You will be able to buy assets and these assets will not be images. They will not be JPEGs. They will be 3d models, that, when you buy them, these 3d models will be inside of the blockchain and you will be able to use them. This is the next level of NFTs. They will probably be 3d models. Not only our metaverse of galleries and museums but other platforms too will be able to utilize these NFTs in the very near future. When I say near future we’re talking about weeks or months not years.
01:08:41 • Jeremy
That’s awesome. That’s news to me. Bullish over here for sure. We definitely need to do another one of these or jump on your podcast soon because I totally forgot about the wallets as well. There’s so much going on here that it’s impossible to pack it all in during this hour. We’ll drop all those links in the show notes. If you’re listening, I encourage you to poke around and see everything that’s going on. And then, imagine that the IDO is happening tomorrow to help accelerate and make these things happen. Super excited about what you guys are building, and super excited about the future here. Is there anything else we missed that we should touch on before closing this? I think we gave the audience a lot to think about anyways.
01:09:25 • Jovan
They can read about it and they can feel it in VR. They can visit VRAllArt to see what we are doing and to get a little bit of what we are doing. I feel happy that we were visiting your podcasts, Jeremy. It was really nice speaking with you. You are a great supporter of the NFT community and metaverse.. It’s really great having time with you.
01:09:53 • Jeremy
Thank you so much for coming on. Best of luck with the IDO tomorrow. If you’re listening, you still have some time to sign up for the KYC if you’re interested. Not financial advice or anything…we’re just here talking about NFTs. We’re not trying to give you financial advice but yeah check it out if you’re interested. Thank you.
01:10:08 • Jovan
Thank you, Jeremy. Talk to you soon.
01:10:09 • Jeremy
Best of luck. We’ll chat with you soon and thanks so much again for the time.
(00:00:00) – Introduction.
(00:01:30) – Guests’ backgrounds.
(00:03:08) – What is ALL.ART?
(00:10:31) – What is lacking in current NFT metadata & infrastructure.
(00:21:12) – The intellectual property and licensing problem with NFTs.
(00:28:59) – Overview of Solsea.
(00:39:51) – Details of the ALL.ART IDO.
(00:48:03) – The ALL.ART NFT collection.
(00:50:17) – The case for virtual reality.
(00:56:16) – $AART token.
(01:03:35) – Advantages of having Solsea as a working product.
(01:06:27) – Closing thoughts.