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Terra Autumn Series Ep. 6: Creating Customized Dynamic ETFs (Clusters) with Nebula Protocol

Nov 3, 2021 · 74 min media

By Jose Maria Macedo

Guest Host and Head of Delphi Labs Jose Maria Macedo sits down with Sawit Trisirisatayawong, General Manager of Nebula Protocol. Nebula is a community governed protocol that enables customizable dynamic ETFs and indices on Terra. The two discuss Nebula’s index rebalancing design, the governance process around clusters, potential use-cases for cluster tokens, and much more!

Interview Transcript:

Jose Maria · 00:57

Hey everyone today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Sawit Trisirisatayawong, GM at Nebula Protocol. Sawit has been in crypto for awhile, leading integrations at Band Protocol, which is notorious for being a collective of some of the brightest and most prolific builders in the space. He’s now helping contribute to Nebula, an index protocol on Terra, which aims to create ETF type cluster tokens, which combine together different underlying tokens. In this podcast we dig into Sawit’s background, what Nebula is, and why it’s interesting. Sawit, thanks very much for joining me.

Sawit · 01:30

Yeah. Jose, great to be here and thanks for having me.

Jose Maria · 01:33

Absolutely. To kick us off, could you give us a quick description of your background and how you got into crypto?

Sawit · 01:40

For sure. So, technically, you know, engineer by trade. I studied computer science in college and work a couple of jobs as engineers for I think about a year. It was pretty much definitely that time in college, where I first became aware of this idea, this concept of cryptocurrencies and blockchain, mainly back then, because my friend was trading them and, just generally talking about them all the time, and this was way back in like 2016, 2017. Practically at the height of the [inaudible] market.

Sawit · 02:25

I spend a few weeks or a couple of months in Bitcoin and Ethereum and whatever other tokens. While I was more or less interested by the core idea and vision of what people back then think cryptocurrency can be and what, and how blockchain technology can help, nothing really, nothing further really came up out of it back then. Basically I traded crypto for a few months, somehow managed to barely broke even during a bull market. Ultimately they decided that, I’m not gonna make it. That trading is just not my thing. And basically it just stop then.

Sawit · 03:33

That was pretty much it for a couple of years and then fast-forward a bit, I was working at a retail and eCommerce company, building some infra and background tech and stuff for the online marketplace, but similar to many other stories that I think we have all heard in the space, the job wasn’t too interesting or compelling, and honestly they didn’t give me much to do at the shop meter. That was pretty much when I came across them. What actually happened there was that a friend that I knew from one of my internships, I was looking for a new job if I’m looking for something new, a new opportunity. When I said, yes, she basically said for me to just try and apply it there. What really sticks with me even until now, right.

Sawit · 04:06

Was what she said about that if I manage to get in to not even have to think whether to join and just to take the offer and take the job basically. I pretty much did exactly that, but during that time also, just trying to get a better sense to, in an effort to get a better sense of what Ben was and how far the space has come and what cryptocurrencies and all of these blockchains look like. Now, I was catching up on what’s going on in the space since I haven’t had, I haven’t really looked at it in a few years and the shins and how far the industry has come as a whole was just really stunning.

Sawit · 04:44

This was back in 2019 or so definitely nothing like what we have now, but still a massive difference from the many of the ICO eras and when people were just trading coins left and right. Was what she said about that if I manage to get in to not even have to think whether to join and just to take the offer and take the job basically. That was pretty much the thing that convinced me to look more closely at the text. And, I was somewhat previously aware of how the general blockchain works and what Bitcoin is and whatnot through a combination of classes and just random things I do on the side and read up on. I’ve heard terms like smart contracts and decent five applications and has being thrown around.

Sawit · 05:36

This was pretty much the first time that I actually, I guess, took the time and took the effort to research and really looking into it in tune and the detail. So, I started with, guessing what, how a lot of people get started. I will be the Bitcoin white paper. I took a look at 18 and white paper looking look more into, what’s not been checked really are and how they actually work. As well as things that are pretty much new to me, such as, ups and downs and what’s being done with them and what is he there? Right. All the cool stuff that was being built on top.

Sawit · 06:11

Just how fast the space was moving, basically convinced me that this is indeed by division and this is the case and the time that I need to get to be, so all that combined, I decided to take the punch and guess here I am.

Jose Maria·06:29

That’s awesome. Yeah. Great story definitely resonates with me in terms of the NGMI trading, at least. Yeah, I think holding is my jam, although holding from 2017 to 2019, wasn’t very funny that, to be honest. Yeah, so you’ve been building for awhile at band protocol, right. Which is one of the biggest oracle projects in the space. I know you guys have a close relationship with Terra and started building support for it early on. When did you become aware of Terra and what made you want to start building something on it? Was it kind of the case that you became aware of Terra and then you decided to build something on it or was it like you wanted to build something and then you saw Terra and realized it was the right place to do it?

Sawit · 07:11

Yeah. I think there’s two positive answer, right? For me personally, my, basically my end goal has always been to, put a product myself, basically something that I’ve worked on, an idea that I came up with just to basically contribute value to the space in any way I can. Before, I take the plants and join all these defy and toxic priests. When did you become aware of Terra and what made you want to start building something on it? Was it kind of the case that you became aware of Terra and then you decided to build something on it or was it like you wanted to build something and then you saw Terra and realized it was the right place to do it. I was thinking more along with the line of like FinTech and like travel applications and utility and whatnot.

Sawit · 07:47

The ideas of doing something on my own and building a protocol for dance or a company on my own has always been something that is really close to me and pick the encode that I always wanted to achieve, but on tour, right, I initially became aware of the project when they had the option, basically when I had the opportunity to work with them on integrating band Oracles into their scene. Before, I take the plants and join all these DeFi and toxic priests. Terra was still more or less like a cost modification, and even back then, I think the idea was really interesting that the project is trying to basically build the fundamental pieces to support, to be able to support multiple stable coins with different denominations and not just us dollar.

Sawit · 08:33

I think that really that idea of, differentiating out on the DSLR and actually making use cases for other stable coins and make it either easier for people in different countries to actually utilize this blockchain technology in that day-to-day payment. Like what Terra has been doing for quite a while is really interesting to me. That combined with the AMT, have these stable coins be used in the real world. Like, what I said, it’s shy. It has to definitely set it apart from other stable coins. That was more or less the seed of how I decided how I got first, got a look into what Therese and decided to look more into it.

Sawit · 09:18

I think at the end of last year, and at the beginning of this year was when Mirror and then Anchor each launch was really when everything kind of started to click for me personally, seeing how they have come up until these really cool products that no one had thought of before, or just innovating on other the core idea of let’s say things like asset saving that has been in the space for more or less well, and having a really unique and really interesting and useful spin on it while still maintaining, the laser focus call of making UST the most decentralized and useful form of money was really more or less insane. To, and to add on from that. Right.

Sawit · 10:02

I said this in my Twitter a few weeks that I sought to see the community come together from basically nothing like from both from around this project itself. Even just as we’ve seen in Terra ecosystem, they leave people starting to take in the chair, tip to come with ideas, to come into production and to start building things themselves was really convincing and really breathtaking. I guess it’s just the combination of all of these three or four points that made me go, that I just made me decide that this is where I want to be. It’s where I want to build my product. At the end of the day that I needed to join in all of this creative and join in all the fun here.

Jose Maria · 10:48

That’s really cool. W was there, I mean, obviously nebulous an index protocol, is that an area you were interested in already, or was it an opportunity that came up? Like what made you, I guess, want to work on nebulous specifically?

Sawit · 11:01

Yeah, so, even though I said that I’m engineer by trade, that was somewhat ethic has too. What I mean by that is even though, I studied computer science. I mean, I worked mostly at engineer, my interest back then, and even now was actually on more on the financial and business side, especially in areas like equity research and portfolio management and whatnot, though, nothing really for that ever came out of it until now it was something that I still keep an eye on. It comes to the idea for Nebula confide, right, when I was talking to DOE I think a couple of months back, I see it as a pretty good and basically a perfect opportunity for me to both stay in the blockchain and crypto.

Sawit · 11:43

If I face that I have come to be really involved and really invested in while still having, one foot building something that is analogous to an industry, to the financial industry, to the financial sector, that I’m also have a passion and interest for us. On the other hand, on the other hand, right, personally, I think index protocols is an area that is still very much under developing defy and definitely an area and a use case that is somewhat underserved. What I mean by that is that I feel like the possible design space for something like an indices or what we are doing with Nebula or the classic tokens is really massive or even infinite.

Sawit · 12:28

If done, right, this can definitely be a game changer for people that are already specced in how they think of defy and approach investing, as well as, for other people to take the plunge and decided to join the space initially. Somehow, up until now, we have, I feel like we have barely scratched the surface of what’s possible in this kind of penicillin primitive and the asset class. On the other hand, on the other hand, right, personally, I think index protocols is an area that is still very much under developing DeFi and definitely an area and a use case that is somewhat underserved. There isn’t really that many other options or that many other, I guess, protocols or other token, other asset classes that are available to investors and to build on top of that.

Sawit · 13:25

If done, right, this can definitely be a game changer for people that are already specced in how they think of DeFi and approach investing, as well as, for other people to take the plunge and decided to join the space initially. Even, if we keep saying that one, shouldn’t expect to catch all of these narratives and Chen and pumps and new protocols, new ideas and whatnot, I feel like there’s still a lot of room there for us to be as builders, to be able to get closer, to making it easier for people to do just that. If you look at this landscape of indices available in DeFi right now, right? The choices that investors have are more or less, extremely limited aside from a couple of token indices that offer the exposure to last chapter and do sit in CS.

Sawit · 14:15

For example, even for crypto, for someone who I would consider a crypto native like myself, who through my rod ban had the chance to be aware and work, even work with many of these chains and projects way before that we tend to run, is still pretty much, Mr. Board on all the personal benefit and regardless of, how much people pay attention to the space and how much energy and time they put in this just goes to show how hard it is to be properly allocated for every possible changes in the market structure or market conditions.

Sawit · 14:52

For essentially all of the narratives that are, that might pop up whenever it also are all one person only have someone to spend that and so much attention to go around and on the opposite side of that, not everyone and I’m willing, most people are like, don’t have that Liberty the time, or it’s just simply not willing to spend the energy or the effort to mentally invest individual tokens. They didn’t necessarily research themselves. As they actually do the work, when they come to sizing the investment, which I think a lot of people, a lot of investors would agree is probably the best, the most important part, right? To have the, to not only be located in the correct tokens, but to also size to investment in two sides, to a location. And those took it correctly.

Sawit · 15:43

All of this doesn’t even consider it, being able to execute all of that in a successful manner. On the other hand, if you just take a look at the real market for all, how old fashioned and broken and how complicated passive investing and try to stop and access investments like ETF still to us in how much people invest in actually we are, were stopped by a long shot.

Sawit · 16:11

Looking at that, I just see no reason why the same case, the same scenario can happen in defy and in crypto, but then for us, the, in DVD, the device space, like by not having the proper products or in the case of, the correct usages and the correct protocols to support this alternative usage with, possibly a different need or investing style, I just feel like that’s an overall negative some situation where for us, we are driving away people who would have otherwise be interested in the space and on in the longterm limiting the possible adoption and in for all the other side, right, for people that are looking to join in the space, we have probably heard a lot of stories about how people are working to make ends meet and somehow trading crypto on the side.

Sawit · 17:05

They are ending up making life-changing money from it. On the other hand, I expect that there’s a lot more cases where that we necessarily don’t hear myself or people where people either they invested in the wrong coins, or they are not properly located, ended up making their situation worse. We just never basically never came up.

Sawit · 17:27

Looking at that, I just see no reason why the same case, the same scenario can happen in DeFi and in crypto, but then for us, the, in DVD, the device space, like by not having the proper products or in the case of, the correct usages and the correct protocols to support this alternative usage with, possibly a different need or investing style, I just feel like that’s an overall negative some situation where for us, we are driving away people who would have otherwise be interested in the space and on in the longterm limiting the possible adoption and in for all the other side, right, for people that are looking to join in the space, we have probably heard a lot of stories about how people are working to make ends meet and somehow trading crypto on the side.

Sawit · 17:36

One that can effectively help people invest, manage and maintain that portfolio is really a crucial piece in onboarding the next wave from user into defy and into the space in general. The letter C needless to say, that thought of math adoption and bringing the next, let’s say the next million of people will be huge and overall beneficial for everyone involved.

Jose Maria · 18:00

Absolutely. I mean, totally agree with you on the importance of indexes. One that can effectively help people invest, manage and maintain that portfolio is really a crucial piece in onboarding the next wave from user into DeFi and into the space in general. Whereas what are, what I really find interesting about Nebula is that you’re creating a new primitive, in the way that your index is index tokens are constructed. We’re going to dive into that later, but just to give a, a background index to nebulous Ori, Nebula allows for the creation of these cluster tokens, right. Which are similar to the index or ETF products in traditional markets. You’ve given a really good background as to kind of why ETFs are necessary and what ETFs are.

Jose Maria · 18:38

Could you maybe just give a quick a bit more detail on that in terms of like quickly, what an ETF is, how big the industry is in traditional markets, how it works in traditional markets, just as a background. We can then dive into nebulous design specifically.

Sawit · 18:54

Definitely, so to start off what an actually, what an ETF actually ESY. I think most people would probably have heard of stuff like, the SMP index S and P 500 index. What that is basically a hypothetical investment portfolio that contains the stocks of the 500 largest publicly traded company in the U S. The question then is how do you actually size, how many percentage of each of the 500 stocks actually wait? So in for the S and P five index, this is weighted by the ability of market cap of that company is compared to the other. The ETF is then the, an ETF, or, the Pulitzer for it is like an exchange traded. One can then just be thought of as the version of that index that can be actively traded on exchanges.

Sawit · 19:48

We’ll say we asked, how you would be buying and selling stocks in a regular stock exchange, and when it comes to the market size, right, the thought of passive investment is indices are really huge. I think last I checked in chat by, we are talking close to about $10 trillion worth of assets in this asset class. I think this was an, I think this was some time back in August. My guess is that it has only gotten more popular lately. I think in the last 10 years, the investment side and the amount of money in this asset class has caught by almost 10 X.

Sawit · 20:26

Mostly because, as more people are starting started to get their hand on investing as more tools become available and as investing become more approachable and accessible overall, and then this brings me to why these asset classes are used, right. I kind of touched on this a bit earlier. If you’ve got talked to a lot of people that are invested in as a class, you would probably get a few different reasons, but I think it mainly comes down to the fact that most of, either really bad at trading or just really lazy and what that means, right, is that in order to create and maintain a properly diversified portfolio, investment portfolio is actually really challenging.

Sawit · 21:12

Tankless to me, it takes a lot of time, a lot of research and a lot of skills to know, and to understand how, which specific assets to buy into when to rotate or, take profits on each of these investments and how to actually, come down to sizing each of these investments. For most of us who aren’t full-time traders or do this at a job, we don’t probably have the time, or if I’m willing to spend the time and the resources and energy to do so itself.

Sawit · 21:47

That’s where basically the CSUs or ETF comes in using the SMP five ready TFS example, as an example, again, right, instead of you or me or anyone else having to buy into each of the individual stocks yourself, one by one, you can just buy this one, basically stall equivalent one this one each year, and KNN is instant exposure and instant diversification to all the entire assets set in one goal. And, depending on the specific ETF, the issue of the underlying asset, we also be updated, which means, the asset would be located.

Sawit · 22:26

We would be relocated, P their profit will be taken for you without you having to, through your eyes, to the charts too much yourself, or having to constantly worry about, checking the prices, seeing how your investment is doing more of more or less all that is packaged and hidden behind basically an obstruction layer of this detail. Yeah, I think in the end, the relative value of this asset would be what you really need to mainly worry about in that case, which has be, which narratives, which story, which asset classes, which industry you are looking to invest the money to. That’s just an overall, a much simpler and much less, I guess, complicated decision to make for most people. Absolutely.

Jose Maria · 23:16

That makes total sense. Can you explain how these traditional index products work in terms of the rebalancing? So how do they maintain their weights? Obviously the weights are decided beforehand, but then how do they maintain their weights? Because I think that’s one of the key differences between Nebula and kind of traditional index products.

Sawit · 23:34

Yeah. Again, if you look at the S and P 500 teacher, we have, as I mentioned, the word be balanced by the weight of each of the iStock tokens are determined by the market cap of the company is right. Let’s say this, but as I’ll get that traded at people buy instead of different assets, as there’s more news and more information coming in the prices, and by extension the market cap of all these comedies, all the stocks of course changes. What happened is let’s say for S and P 500, every three, every quarter, or so, there’s the fund managers who are looking at takes each day at school.

Sawit · 24:21

These assets have DB from the baseline budget and the big thing that made the major decision, or we know we should, we use this allocation, we should increase the exposure to this asset, more given that using the market capita as a baseline, but at the end of the day, the decision of, how to actually take that information, take that market cap information, and without to make any changes to that, VCs is still pretty much central life as in it’s, the fund managers and the banks, and the, basically the institutions themselves that more or less comes up with these guidelines. Even though they communicate that to most of the investors, it’s still that something that investors, retail investors still need to more or less have trust in the institution and the companies that are handling debt assessed to make the necessary adjustments.

Jose Maria · 25:22

Yeah. That makes sense. Jumping into Nebula, there are similar products that exist on Ethereum, such as index co-op. Right. Could you explain the main differences between nebulous architecture design versus something like index, specifically I guess, around the rebalancing flow, which I think is the most unique thing about Nebula?

Sawit · 25:42

Yeah, so I think, just as a base line, right, I think the existing index protocol that we have on, if there are many officiants, pretty much gets the job done when it comes to replicating what each of our, in the traditional finance world, and really that over to, the space for us to have a similar asset class, let’s take a look at the index or DPI talking next aesthetic, this example, right, which I believe is probably the most popular and successful index token on the market right now that are actively traded. So, for context, the token itself chats the value, basically check the value of a collection of lucid defy tokens, such as, uni of a maker, sushi, and a lot more and similar to traditional ETF.

Sawit · 26:33

These, all these tokens, how much of these tokens are located into the index is weighted by the relative market cap of the index of the individual tokens at the time. While, I believe DPI have a governance protocol and a governance system whereby people can propose the addition of new disease or make changes to how, these assets are added or rebalance or what the replanting factors are. Also on the other hand, as an extension to that create also created new indices. So, for context, the token itself chats the value, basically check the value of a collection of lucid DeFi tokens, such as, uni of a maker, sushi, and a lot more and similar to traditional ETF. All the building blocks and all the primitives that we have to play with and all of the tools that we have available.

Sawit · 27:55

I think the main core reason that we started Nebula is we just feel like there should be more and that there is so much more room that remain unexplored and that we can play around with experiment and utilize when it comes to designing. You are really new and let’s say more or less next generation of in the field, in define crypto in adoption. In general, we talk a lot about the concept of program, the more money defined in crypto. I just feel like there’s a lot more, that can be well know when it comes to the fees and clusters and this asset class as a whole. And again, sorry, go ahead. Oh yeah.

Sawit · 28:39

I was just going to say that’s pretty much what we’re looking to do with temperature and what is pretty much our north star is that how to take the inspiration from the founding foundation and the building blocks that are available. We tried PI and combine that with all the tools and the building pieces that crypto and defy has to offer to create the best in class index protocol. To that extent, I think during the one year or so, that have been the defy. We have come to realize one thing that people are more or less driven by two factors. One is narratives and the other is incentives. We tried PI and combine that with all the tools and the building pieces that crypto and DeFi has to offer to create the best in class index protocol.

Sawit · 29:28

To that extent, I think during the one year or so, that have been the DeFi People like to say that people like to call it that 90% of startups companies fail. Now, I would say, find success and about more or less under about 1% becomes a moonshot or unicorn. And, similar to what happened in Silicon valley, back in the nineties and the early two thousands, even if most of the startups there that have popped up during those years stale their startup and the technology and the FinTech movement as a whole ended up becoming really revolutionary and really trust myself. I think that’s exactly the same case, the same situation that is happening in crypto and defy right now, and for most investors.

Sawit · 30:14

I’m sure that you would more or less agree, right? When you take a step back and look at it, look at the whole space in general, it is not so much the individual comedies and protocols that all the feces on credit, or even, individual investors are investing in, but the overarching movement and the narrative and the vision of what the crypto and blockchain can bring to the mainstream and bring to the world, and this could be, and these narratives can be really overarching stuff. Like what I’ve just mentioned, or be more, divided into let’s say defy, or even smaller sub narratives, such as new farming infrastructures or calls that you want bridges, spinach or whatever else. And you don’t. I think that’s exactly the same case, the same situation that is happening in crypto and DeFi right now, and for most investors.

Jose Maria · 31:32

That makes sense. Like what I’ve just mentioned, or be more, divided into let’s say DeFi, or even smaller sub narratives, such as new farming infrastructures or calls that you want bridges, spinach or whatever else. In order to rebalance. Whereas with Nebula one big difference is that you have these incentives for anyone to come in and do these trades, right. Where if they’re moving the basket away from its target way, then they’re effectively paying a tax. If you come in and you’re moving the basket towards the target way in the way that you add or remove assets, then you’re being kind of subsidized. Could you maybe talk through like that mechanism and how it works? Because I think that’s super interesting.

Sawit · 32:17

Yeah. As I said, right, as opposed to the traditional markets or the other index protocols that might be popping up, the team itself is not necessarily, responsible for the replanting instead, what we are, what we design is an incentive mechanism, where in anyone, right? Anyone that you still have that protocol audience, anyone who is interested in doing so can effectively help sustain and maintain the protocol help by rebalancing the composition of the cluster themselves. What I mean when you think of what a rebalancing actually is basically, adding more, a location one Spokane and possibly reducing the location of the next.

Sawit · 33:05

With Nebula, what happens is if let’s say, as people traded the underlying tokens and the prices stray away from the mechanism and the algorithm that we have in place, people, we incentivize other people to help fix this imbalance by giving either giving them a discount on if they put, if they change the composition of cluster, by adding in the face more on the line token, they get a discount on a specific portion of the index token, or initially what we plan on also doing is to basically incentivize it through our Nebula tokens. That would be an additional incentive video on top, but to be completely honest, right? I think even the initial, the core rebalancing is self. Should we expect that should already be quite, alluring for people to start replant rebalancing themselves.

Sawit · 34:10

I’m sure that, as the community starts to rally alone around the blur, as we have seen with a lot of other protocols that have launched, with Apollo, with nexus, or even with initially with Anchor, there’s always a lot of people who are always on hand looking to help and, build and maintain and yeah. Help helping in any way that we can.

Jose Maria · 34:34

For sure. That’s, I think a big thing with this is I would, with traditionally ETFs, there’s a huge amount of like, trying to figure out when the ETFs actually doing the rebalancing and then a bunch of hedge funds like front running it. Right. Whereas with this mechanism, it kind of avoids all of that. At the same time, one thing that we’ve been thinking about internally is normally like an index protocol or an ETF, it’s like an AUM business, right. You need to get really massive for it to make sense because you’re charging like bips on your AUM. Whereas something like Nebula, you’re actually capturing, not just AUM, but you’re also capturing trading velocity right. In that, you can effectively charge a fee on all of these arbitragers that they’re happening in.

Jose Maria · 35:12

You’re capturing a portion of like the velocity almost of the index tokens or the cluster tokens is as you guys call them. Could you maybe talk about that because yeah, I think again, it’s a really important point to understand, because I think it’s one of the fun, it’s probably in my opinion, the fundamental innovation behind Nebula.

Sawit · 35:34

Yeah. I think there’s a couple of points there, right? One is, as in terms of the protocol itself, definitely we are looking to be self-sustainable.

Sawit · 35:45

What we do is similar to let’s say how Muir utilize this, the CDP and take, I think they take a presentation perhaps of the mid fee when people, the methods, we do a similar thing when it comes to rebalancing, whereas when they pull them in and burn different underlying tokens for different clusters to help rebrand the protocol, we also take a portion of the piece there to help sustain and to add, to make sure that all of these acts, all the market movement that we see in the space and all the price actions that are going on when it comes to the underlying assets that are being used in all the customers that we’ll be launching with, or even ones that will be launched by the community.

Sawit · 36:29

Once they start coming up with ideas, all of those accrues to the protocol and, add values and add longevity to the protocol and to, ecosystem as a whole.

Jose Maria · 36:45

Makes sense. We look at like the type of products that you can create with this, how is that governance process going to work? Cause I think one really key thing with indexes, as you mentioned, is that you have products that people actually want to own and want to trade. Like, will anyone be able to create a cluster? Is there a governance process around this? How does it, how does all that side of things work?

Sawit · 37:08

Yeah. It’s basically anyone can create their own clusters by mean, if you take a look at Mirror effect, as an example, let’s say, I want to amend if I want to live, like send that fake synthetic Bitcoin, which I think is already available. What I need to do is basically create an on chain proposal saying, Hey, I want to, I think we should have this, asset list that on Mirror and be available to a Mirror. This is the reason why I think this would beneficial to Mirror. The community as a whole can have a say, whether they think this has beneficial within whether they think that they agree with this proposal and if the proposal passes, then it would just go into the stage of limitation and make it, and to us in limitation and doing all the necessary development work.

Sawit · 37:58

Eventually the asset report life, they see the equivalent is happening, will be happening from Nebula, right? Let’s say if someone wants to list, I dunno, defined as token on the bla. They can say, Hey, I want, I think Nebula should have an defy index. They, what they would need to certify then would be, one would be of course, the index, the underlying assets that they want to list. Let’s say they want this asset to comprise initially of uni of our way of maker and whatnot. The second would be the study grade of, how many presenters of the allocation or the asset would go to what’s uni, how many books would go toward maker and whatnot. They can say, Hey, I want, I think Nebula should have an DeFi index. They can also design one or two things.

Sawit · 38:54

One is the rebalancing mechanism, which say basically, as we have gone over before, how are these ratio actually rebalance and change as the assets are being traded and as the part of has change and the, this has these parameters, this algorithm at the core, it can be as simple as, what is already done in trust by such as, relative market cap, relative PE ratio 30 day trading volume, 30 day price movement, or it can be really complex, more complex from large, more complex, technical indicators, such as, let’s say, 30 days, if it effective private center, the moving averages, or even what is possible would be if we take an equal then of wall street, right, we can integrate all the complex algorithm, complex modeling complex, trading strategies that the tread five firms and these financial and quantum researchers have developed over a year and only by tweaking to be compatible.

Sawit · 40:01

We can have the benefit of what was paid and what all the institutional investors have access to be able for anyone, right, for all retail, for all investors, for basically anyone we can left where they are, regardless of their financial status, to be able to have access to the same core technology and the same core briefly, I guess, technology and trading capabilities.

Jose Maria · 40:34

W w what parameters have to be set for a psych. If you take me through the step by step, let’s say a Delphi wants to do like a, a gaming index, right. And assets are on Terra. We, we set up the index, what parameters do we have to put in the governance proposal? and then how does it get voted in, and then is it possible to kind of update those parameters over time as well? And would that require a governance vote or would it require a cluster token holders to vote? Or how does that part work?

Sawit · 41:05

Yeah. Initially when you propose a new plastic, you will need to define three things. At least the first would be to assess that the first would be what, in the, if you’re looking to build the second would be, what assets would you want to initially constitute that in depth, that is the rebalancing mechanism that you’ll look at, you use the different index, like in terms of how the ratio is of the different tokens will be rebalanced.

Sawit · 41:30

One thing that you can also add if what we call the penalty function, which is basically, as you mentioned, right, how, when asked if catheters are traded and the privates becomes all, basically all tech from the co rebel, what it should be defined by the rebalancing, how do you either reward or penalize the people who are trading the underlying token and mentioning and burning the underlying tokens either to make the assets to me, the class that was closer to what they, the intended weights, or either away from the intended brief, right?

Sawit · 42:09

Naturally if someone goes to help rebalance the cluster and, change the underlying assets to match, to move it towards the, to what the rebalancing much, we would be bought them, Brittany, if the discount or the customer tokens or a net reward, and on the opposite side of a militia, Melissa, that they would were to try to, type diverse data away, even further from what it should be, then they should be penalize into until you do the fees or the return that get back on their accents on the rebalancing actions. That’s pretty much the core, components that are core parameters that we’ll meet would be necessary when you are looking to propose a new factor.

Sawit · 42:57

Once you submit a proposal on Shane, right, this would be voted and much like any other government proposals that were filled with a lot of different protocols, both on turtles. Once the assets khalife definitely, as time goes on, you might want to either add new assets or reduce or remove some assets from the clusters. These can definitely be done to the covenants, and it would go through the same onboarding process by the community to make sure that not one entity is in control of the customer themselves to 50 remove a single point of dependency and single point of failure. To make sure that, this is actually some of the assets or the clusters that are being listed on developer call is something that the community actually agreed on as a whole.

Jose Maria · 43:48

Makes sense. Who votes on those, wait updates or adding assets? Sorry, is it the net token holders or the cluster token holder?

Sawit · 43:57

It would be initially it would be the NAB casino token holder, the Nebula token holders. Right. So, so that to, other protocols, what they would need to do, if that, for whoever’s take, have a portion of the nipple token stake in the index protocol covenants have a certain voting power, but in our case, we have also, intense implemented like a bowl locking medic mechanism whereby people can magnify and multiply how much power they have by locking their blood tokens for bearing periods of time ranging from the thing about a week four, all the way to two years, and your voting power would be increased and scaled up by that factor of how long you are lucky you’re talking in for similar to similar mechanisms to, what we have seen with other protocols such as curb.

Sawit · 44:51

I think what, and also to keep it to.

Jose Maria · 44:56

For sure. Yeah. Are the people who are proposing these clusters actually setting, the rebalanced parameters in terms of the subsidy and tax and how has that, like, what kind of parameter is that, I guess, is it similar to kind of the optimal utilization in something like or like how would we set that?

Sawit · 45:18

Yeah, so I think overall, if we, what we expect the outcome is that the initial proposer of the cluster would be the one who basically defines the initial parameters, of the fees or the rebalancing parameters and whatnot. And, but before this proposal, even to go and change, I think the, what we expect is similar to when security parameters or, asset listing parameters happen on protocols. Like they go through like an option discussion either on like forum sites or through other community channels to make sure that, other members, other community members or other entities, other individuals have designs through Simon and give that advice, give that feedback, or just generally comment on before, the final model signup version.

Jose Maria · 46:14

Okay. Once it’s, I think people might’ve got it, but maybe just to spell it out, once the tokens are trading, then you have this mechanism where effectively like governance has defined the target weight. Let’s say it’s like a gaming index and there’s ACCE and alluvium and other stuff in it. So there’s 25% each. What that means is that, once the cluster token is trading at its target way, there’s kind of no arbitrage opportunity, but as soon as someone adds assets in a way that moves it away from the target way, so maybe you add too much axions too much a movie or whatever you would effectively pay a tax on that. Right. Vice versa, if you bring that back to the target way, you would kind of get a subsidy on that.

Jose Maria · 46:55

Could you talk through like a step-by-step example or like, yeah, kinda kind of step-by-step how the mechanism works for people to really grock it. Okay.

Sawit · 47:05

Yeah. I think let’s take, define index as an example, right? Let’s say we have, initially we have four assets, let’s say, synthetics of a maker and compound is initially starting at 25% rating with each. Let’s say the rebalancing algorithm will say that these should always be weighted as 25%. Basically static parameter set, but, as the assets are trading and as prices increase and decrease, it could be the case that let’s say the, an increase in value and the maple token reducing value, hypothetically speaking of course, but what we expect the protocol to do, right. Or what we expect, like a white hatted, how do you call it? Like, what we intended blaster to do would be to remove some of the, union tokens and add that some of the maker token or remove some of the, yeah.

Sawit · 48:11

Basically remove some of the UT unit tokens and some of the maker token to make sure that the dollar value of all the assets still remains at 25%. In that case, if that happens, they will be rewarded through the multiple incentives that we have kind of over. On the other hand, let’s say someone were to keep adding unit talking to the customer, right. That would mean that instead of rebalancing and, coming back to pick off 25% each for each asset you need, so can keep increasing in weight. Basically at one point it would just be really outdated. All of the other totally token would be outdated by it. To prevent that case status, anytime that, people try to do this Marcella, we text them, right.

Sawit · 49:02

We penalize them by, making sure that they lose value on the trades to make sure that, since people are getting the wood turns out that their extended, they doing negative Evie for them, that would more or less incentivize them distancing, incentivize them from proceeding to keep continuing doing this. Instead to what is actually beneficial for them financially, or even on the baseline, which is help maintain the protocol help and help maintain these, expected balance with.

Jose Maria · 49:37

Makes sense. Let’s say in your hypothetical example, someone comes in and, or the governance votes to change the way they say they don’t like clean money. The vote out maker and the it’s just like compound oven and synthetics. That would make the way it’s 33. So, so am I right in thinking that would open up an instant kind of arbitrage opportunity for like fast traders to come in and kind of bring that back? Or is there some way to avoid like the holders of the cluster, kind of getting hurt or taxed by that?

Sawit · 50:12

I think initially it would be, that we expect most of the generally like generally, like we are right. We expect that the communities are the one who take our sense on this. What we try to do is if let’s say the competition wants to change it would be as it could be a chase, as you said, like, some at first were to, if they have not necessarily funds necessary capacity to do so to basically do the rebalancing themselves and take all people with there. We are what we are definitely looking to do. What we are looking to implement is an easier way for people to actually do this.

Sawit · 50:52

We assess themselves, right? So instead of having to keep monitoring the clusters or the underlying assets to see, Hey, whether there’s an off-peak, or a rebrand that needs to happen, what they can essentially do is let’s say one idea would be to pull their, as they want to use in rebalancing into a pool, either something that we’ll be creating or we have actually talked with a lot of other folks who are looking to do this other mechanisms.

Sawit · 51:22

What would happen is then let’s say the customer would, happen to deviate from the target rate by a certain threshold then is it, is these faults more or less that will be taking the action for them, and then any incentives, any rewards, any, positive additions that are gained from that action would be equally distributed to all the, individual or the basically LP for all of the people who have participated in this sport, in this protocol as a whole.

Jose Maria · 51:57

Makes it makes a lot of sense. Will it be possible to also have cashflow streams to the creator of the cluster? So for instance, if, again, if we wanted to create a gaming index, would it be possible to have some fees accrue to Delphi, for example,

Sawit · 52:13

That’s something that should actually be talking about quite a lot in the initial release. I think what we are trying to do with the initial version that launched is to basically, prove, basically be a proof of concept, more or less of what we’re trying to build and to show a working sample of the core features that we are looking to show basically like when it comes to our rebalancing algorithm, our ideas, when it comes to rebalancing call or penalty, and basically the breath of the, how, why did it find different space if possible with all these components? But definitely I think they thought of managers fees or costs. The creation piece is something that we are actively considering and something that we have heard, a lot of people are interested in.

Sawit · 53:00

A lot of people are asking for and something that we are looking to, how we can implement this in as effective, a way as possible, but to not cross the line, as in, to go back to the more refined model that there’s one managerial manager overseeing all these changes and taking all the incentives and how do we pull it the upside on all these customer changes and cluster performance. Overall it’s something that we are definitely looking to do. Something that is something that we are still deciding on how to best approach this problem, or how to best approach this teacher.

Jose Maria · 53:38

It makes a lot of sense. I think that’s a really good overview of kind of how Nebula works and I hope that cleared it up for people, in terms of like actual products that you can launch on Nebula, I’ve seen a lot of really cool ideas on the Nebula forum. What initial, products are you launching with and why did you select, I guess these in particular?

Sawit · 53:59

Yeah. So, our main idea or main goal for the initial clusters that we look to launch with aspire to give the community more or less an idea of what is, again, what is possible when it comes to designing Custer. That means that we are trying to be diverse as possible when it comes to as many of the aspects that we can customize the tokens that are included or how they are rebalanced, but mainly when it comes to these classes themselves, they can be more or less separated or split into three categories. The first ones are the one, the cluster that comprises of crypto assets that are native to Chara. An example of these is what we call the terraforming cluster, this asset is then comprised of the tokens of the major protocols on Terra, in the Terra ecosystem.

Sawit · 54:49

All of these would be then be balanced by the market cap. At the start, like, right, we plan on this customer, including tokens, such as Luna, Mirror and Anchor, but as more and more protocol and start to launch in the next few months or so, as we have already seen, since the list will naturally changed to reflect then that, the second are assets that are from other chains. With the recent introduction of IBC, I think just going live today or yesterday, we are about to see a whole new set up assets being available in Terra specifically, and especially one that were previously only available on that exchange, such as, if they’re able to Solana.

Sawit · 55:38

Given that one of our protocols as a protocol is to give our community as much flexibility and diversity as possible when it comes to what they can use to create their clusters. These are the definitely the assets that we are looking to utilize and use in particular. You don’t want that point for our, what we call a future price cluster in particular, that we’ll be utilizing the inter or probability and this question transfer the cluster itself will comprise of the tokens of the top lending protocol, the top market money pockets for the cost of defy across all the support for the change. If we would include stuff like AMC, but also other chains such as, a compound maker and so potentially, assets from other chains just lead, death, of course, the Senate assets that are made possible by Mirror.

Sawit · 56:39

I’ll go with that is to essentially showcase, given the same building blocks as what is available and transpire, right? What is what advantageous and what features and what new things develop can bring over to Chad pie. Oh, I mean over to the five, but then again, these initial clusters are only meant to be a showcase of what is available at the start, to go on a bit of attention. You don’t want that point for our, what we call a future price cluster in particular, that we’ll be utilizing the inter or probability and this question transfer the cluster itself will comprise of the tokens of the top lending protocol, the top market money pockets for the cost of DeFi across all the support for the change.

Sawit · 57:14

Whereas, we have probably one of the most, if not the most diverse array and set of asset types that are in the ecosystem or in defined general, this started from all these data points that are already available to the quarter shame. With the introduction of Mirror last year, we started to have synthetic assets and with Anchor, they also bring about an whole new class of you, parents token, you product success, the UST Luna, and mostly with libido and with all these new protocols that are set to launch in the next few months a week, these diversity, we only continue to grow stuff like let’s say, pure Luna. While you now from prison protocol or leverage token from Nirvana and many more even we only keep pushing the horizontal what’s possible when it comes to designing on Nebula cluster.

Sawit · 58:13

When you start to experiment and combine each of these as a classic thing, right, let’s say instead of differentiating between acidity as a cluster and cluster, if we can find ways to combine these two to create basically a new mixture each year, I think that’s where things get really interesting. Yeah. I think that’s basically what I like to say is that what’s possible when it comes to Nebula and what’s possible when it comes to enable a pastor is only limited by what they committed to come up with, right.

Sawit · 58:45

I don’t mean just mean that when it comes to, let’s say what has said that, or what part of me tells me with that, but every take a step back, right? As people and more builders come into the space and she come here with more idea from new primitives and new, interesting token designs that we only add to the potential of what a customer can be and all the building pieces that are beautiful and the components that the protocol we have to work with,

Jose Maria · 59:14

It makes a lot of sense. That was kind of one of my next questions, which is you rely on the toe, like Nebula relies on underlying tokens, right? So you’re dependent on what tokens are live on Terra. Mirrors is a big part of like importing, for example, real world assets, but I guess cross chain protocols like wormhole and IBC are also super important to port over assets from other chains. Do you have any plans in this area? Are you working with any of those protocols to kind of bring over specific assets that you’re interested in?

Sawit · 59:44

Yeah, I think, as I said, right, initially we, a couple of our initial assets already plan on utilizing assets from other protocols, such as the official plan France customer, which will be, which we will basically exclusively apart from Android launch, utilizing assets from either. We’re also looking at Solana to say, what interesting idea, interesting design that you have, that we can come up into to utilize access from the shade and deco system as well. The, on that, on the robot side, right on the RDP side, it’s another whole separate thing. I think we are looking to have IVC completely live this Friday. That will bring in a lot more, token from other shame, Beijing banshee and with the native Pokemon, all chain or objective or our cost, or, as more and more protocols are being done on the Cosmo osmosis.

Sawit · 01:00:39

There’s again, there’ll be a lot more interesting doc talking the, that come from all these different ecosystem and all these differentiates always will be available and always will only help to empower and push the frontier and push the design space of what we can do and what the community can do with, and more or less simple ideas such as in this protocol, like Nebula.

Jose Maria · 01:01:07

Makes sense. Makes sense. Do you have any ideas? Cause one of the things I always think about with this is it’s tough to figure out what products people actually want to trade, right? Like how do cause obviously governance is making those decisions, but is there any way for governance to find out like what people actually want, like to kind of gauge interest because that the stakeholders that are participating in governance might not necessarily overlap with the people that are going to own and trade these indexes. Right. The governors are probably more experienced users, whereas a lot of the target market for the index will be like people that are new to crypto and stuff and want an easy way to get certain exposures.

Jose Maria · 01:01:48

Are you just relying on the wisdom of governance or is there some way that you can like quickly test products and eliminate them if they don’t have, the man, cause I guess you’ll also be using NEB incentives on these products. It’s important that you kind of get that, right. Yeah. Curious if you’ve thought of any interesting mechanisms there.

Sawit · 01:02:08

Yeah. I think that’s actually an interesting design decision and an interesting problem that we are still more or less looking into, but initially what we can to help, basically bridge that problem is that as you said, not all hospitals, not all cancers need to be permanent. Even let’s say if someone created a customer and again, it doesn’t work either because the price action is not favorable or there’s not as much effect as much adoption or use as expected because there was, can actually be the commission. Right. If the community say, Hey, this, cause I don’t think this customer is actually adding any value to the ecosystem or authentic or alternatively, like they just said that I don’t think he has a use for this cluster. They can, they can, again, initially go through governance to say let’s become the, this cluster.

Sawit · 01:03:07

And if from our perspective, right. If their answer is, if they are more or less honest on the correct part, most of the community, if they are, if they have the protocols, best interest in mind should agree with them. I think there’s like, so what mainly drives, they like testing ground or they deficient on what’s called process, create assets as well as which costs cost to continue supporting and or which cut the, to scrub in at least in the beginning. When it comes to designing the course at the beginning, I think as you said, I think they are, they will now be consists of two main parties. The first is basically crypto native who might have a lot of experience, spend a lot of time on crypto Twitter or in the space in general.

Sawit · 01:04:02

They would have more or less have a pretty good idea of what the recent narrative, what in Australia, in what narratives, what story is, what some industries are interesting, but might not necessarily have the, let’s say the technical or the technical know-how on how to actually make this idea to, a profitable or a product or a customer that people want to use. On the other hand, what we are trying to check with them, right, is these people exactly this, the second set of people with experience in tripod thing, managing the solids of like, portfolio or the thought of in fees and we can incentivize them in the correct way.

Sawit · 01:04:49

We can probably the best case scenario that we expect to happen is that these two people, these two group of people, more or less coordinated and what you get there, it might be the case that the person come up with the initial ideas and effect and the people who are better and the kind of thing design that refined the idea to make sure that the parameters and whatnot are pretty much make sense. Then, this is how I see new cluster being created going forward once we launch. Once we provide the starting blocks, with the 40 communities in terms of what Nebula, what tool they have to work with and how they can actually start doing this also custody signs on their own.

Jose Maria · 01:05:37

That’s super interesting. Cluster tokens are going to be a new primitive on Terra, right? And I’m curious other than like how Nebula itself works, which I think we’ve covered at length. What do you see as the most interesting ways that cluster tokens will be used, composable across other protocols on Terra?

Sawit · 01:05:56

Yeah. I think customers, the usefulness of cluster for me personally, comes down to two sideways. One is definitely, as we have talked quite extensively about it, based on the baseline, it helps people manage and maintain and get exposure to different narrative, different things, easier with, let’s we throw us and that time having spent.

Sawit · 01:06:20

I think where we really differentiate from definitely really depreciate from traditional ETF is in what is actually possible with, our idea of a rebalancing mechanics and what we actually able to do with that part at this party, right, is to basically change how people and how we ourselves view what’s actually possible in the five one to give one example of what I mean by that is like one idea that I actually just recently had is based on utilizing the new class of new products and you took them that were introduced by Anchor stuff like. So, other probiotics taking directives such as, I think they are looking at a problem that I definitely faced myself there as someone, who you heavily quite heavily utilize as Anchor to borrow quite a bit.

Sawit · 01:07:16

It is that it is really hard to properly rebalance the PSS that you already using as collateral, right? So let’s say you have a portion of beef in that corrupt portion of build Luna in Anchor. Once you borrow a certain amount of USG from Anchor you more or less, you can’t really be balanced how much do now and how much and co you have in that protocol without, returning all the funds, taking the necessary parts out and then trading, making the necessary, making the required Chet trade and putting the asset back in and doing all of that stuff manually. I think one idea that how the blockbuster can help with that is that imagine, if you have any, if you initially, the Pacific Corp, the amount of just as a base line, right.

Sawit · 01:08:05

Use that to borrow use again, you would need to be able to rebalance, let’s say now went up and you want to, for some reason, taking property to eat, you need to return UST to take her to eat and then put a B the back end before being able to borrow again, what I imagined that a custody with that com is basically a design that comprise us in underline. He has a class to be signed, right? That on the underlying assets contained below nine D and the different MTSS, support for supported by Anchor. That way we can define a rebalancing mechanism that let’s say, if they’re not, if the, price increases by more than 8% to take 8% profit into B Luna.

Sawit · 01:09:03

I think one idea that how the block cluster can help with that is that imagine, if you have any, if you initially, the Pacific Corp, the amount of just as a base line, right.

Jose Maria · 01:09:28

Yeah. That’s a really cool idea. I know we have a few as well in terms of, some of the protocols we’re incubating like Mars and Astro port. I mean, there are obvious ones, but there are also some more advanced ones, but we’ve already run over quite a bit. So we won’t get into that. Yeah, I think cluster tokens are going to be a super interesting primitive that’s gonna unlock a lot of new stuff on Terra and stuff that we can’t even imagine as well.

Jose Maria · 01:09:52

If people are interested for, from this podcast and Nebula, which I think a lot of people will be like, where can they find out more? do you have any documentation out? I, I couldn’t find anything too in depth, but Jeff’s any dates on when you’ll be releasing that when Nebula will be coming out and how people can find out more about what you’re doing.

Sawit · 01:10:10

Yeah. We have, like, we have the information on basically what the initial cluster that we are looking to launch with. I think when our forum, and I think I can send the link to you to attest in this episode as well. I think that will definitely help people. In terms of the documentation, that is something that is close to being done. We are looking to release that in the next, hopefully the next couple of weeks and on the protocol itself, we are pretty much close to ready, just, we want to find out, I think, a few things to make sure that everything’s on the launch go with as smoothly as possible, and we’ll be releasing a lot more information on what people can expect in terms of the launch sequence or the launch date and whatnot in general pretty soon.

Jose Maria · 01:10:58

Very cool. That’s awesome. I guess, just to finish up, what are you most excited about, with terabytes and how do you kind of see it play out, post Columbus five? Like the main protocol is launching, are there any that particularly excited about, and how do you see it? How do you see it all playing out?

Sawit · 01:11:19

Yeah, I think one of the main thing that I think definitely Terra assessed itself apart from both is its inception under Terraform nuts and even lately, right, is that they are trying to not only restrict adoption too, or only not totally focused on the defy crowd, but also to bring all the possibilities of this cool stuff, all these products that we’ll be building into the hands of the people that might not be encrypted right now. Stop, like, what already done bit shy, what has been done with Anchor integrating with some of the banks or even stuff like third party payments services such as kind of will such as, Alice and whatnot.

Sawit · 01:12:07

I think it’s just this idea of, how can we package this in a, with all this innovation, all this cool tape, all these cool protocol that we have and bring it across the cap from the TFI crowd to the actual mainstream user in a way that, then might not necessarily have to know that they are interacting with a blockchain, but still be able to reap and be able to enjoy the benefit of what a blockchain, what are the five protocol and what the ecosystem can enable and can give. I think that’s a really cool angle that I think a lot of other ecosystems are definitely looking to replicate, but I think this is something that is definitely currently really, you need to try and do to a system as a whole.

Jose Maria · 01:12:59

Yeah, I think one of the main thing that I think definitely Terra assessed itself apart from both is its inception under Terraform nuts and even lately, right, is that they are trying to not only restrict adoption too, or only not totally focused on the DeFi crowd, but also to bring all the possibilities of this cool stuff, all these products that we’ll be building into the hands of the people that might not be encrypted right now. Yeah. I’m really excited to see the convergence of the Terra investment ecosystem and the spending of your system. I think there’s a lot of cool stuff happening in both.

Jose Maria · 01:13:07

Yeah, I think one of the main thing that I think definitely Terra sets itself apart from both is its inception under Terraform Labs and even lately, right, is that they are trying to not only restrict adoption too, or only not totally focused on the DeFi crowd, but also to bring all the possibilities of this cool stuff, all these products that we’ll be building into the hands of the people that might not be encrypted right now.

Sawit · 01:13:27

Yeah, if you didn’t mind, right. Actually on Nebula and how this actually plays into the real world, right. I think there’s, how am I, I was talking about, how Nebula can make, people’s device for instance, easier, but on the other side, you don’t own the pure investing side where I really like Toronto ecosystem as well is how well the different protocols and the different products can basically integrate together. For example, if you look at where stock market or ETL, right? Most people doesn’t really say invest their whole investment portion into an asset over at a time. But, but on the other hand, right, the DCA, or I think this content class like perpetual and repeated investment, it’s a lot more of a thing in Taipei.

Sawit · 01:14:22

So, what we’ll look to do with Herbalife definitely is to partner with all these protocols that are looking to do with your solid recurring payment of reactions. I think summarized simply one that we have been talking to and, if we can utilize what they’re looking to build and build on top of that, basically to offer people bought into crypto and outside of patrol to be able to DCA to Def fabric, indices or clusters, I think that can, that will definitely help add and bring more and more people into seeing all the things that are possible. The outside of, what the, if I can actually get the mainstream audience before.

Jose Maria · 01:15:05

A hundred percent, very exciting stuff. Any last comments or like things you’d encourage people to do if they want to like check out what you’re doing, find out more follow.

Sawit · 01:15:16

Yeah. I think, as I said, we will, we are definitely planning on ramping up our communication and, basically we’ll definitely be sharing more information on, and what we plan on doing what our main goals and whatnot are in the very short, when in the very near future. But, if anyone has any questions in the mean time after watching this podcast or otherwise we have, they always welcome to reach out to me or, anyone in CFO and we would be more than happy to talk to say, if they might, if there’s something that we can potentially help with to answer their questions, or even if they, if anyone’s doing something that they might either want to leverage Nebula tokens, or think that they’re the way for us to generally work together.

Sawit · 01:16:05

You’re always welcome to ping us anywhere here on telegram or Twitter or anywhere else.

Jose Maria · 01:16:14

That’s awesome. Really appreciate your time. It was, it was a pleasure speaking to you, and I think people are gonna leave this, understanding Nebula a lot better and also being, getting quite excited about what it can enable. Really appreciate your time and look forward to doing this again at some point once nebulous launched.

Sawit · 01:16:31

Yeah, for sure. Thanks again for having me. This was really fun.

Jose Maria · 01:16:35

Thank you.

Show Notes: 

(00:00:00) – Introduction.

(00:01:33) – Sawit’s background. 

(00:06:29) – Choosing to build on Terra. 

(00:10:38) – Choosing to build an index protocol.

(00:18:28) – Overview of Nebula.

(00:22:59) – Asset weight rebalancing explained. 

(00:30:49) – Nebula’s rebalancing mechanism design. 

(00:35:51) – The governance process around clusters on Nebula. 

(00:43:46) – Setting the rebalancing parameters. 

(00:45:43) – The step-by-step process of rebalancing.

(00:50:32) – Cash flow streams for index creators. 

(00:52:08) – The products launching on Nebula. 

(00:57:37) – Bringing over assets from other chains. 

(00:59:27) – Finding out users’ demand for specific assets. 

(01:03:45) – Use cases for cluster tokens. 

(01:07:53) – How to find out more about Nebula. 

(01:08:57) – What Sawit is most excited about for Terra. 

(01:11:20) – How Nebula ties into the real world. 

(01:12:59) – Closing thoughts.